Fuel Injection.

Does anybody have an inside scoop on Fuel Injection?

For the first year or so I see the big teams with a hugh advantage.
You can bet they are already testing the shit out of all different combinations.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Abrams on April 5, 2011 at 12:23pm

Kentucky is coming and as always the big 4 will have serious advantages.

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Permalink Reply by Wheaton56 on April 5, 2011 at 12:47pm

Unless Nascar Issues the ECU each race, and its a sealed unit.

If they are trying to keep up with the times try direct???? but this FI debate makes nascar look more modern

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Permalink Reply by Carl Abrams on April 5, 2011 at 12:50pm

http://www.nascar.com/news/110404/fuel-injection-test-kentucky/inde...

Check this artical.
It looks to me like there will be some grey area here at first.

I hope Dodge is trying to keep up on the latest.

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Permalink Reply by NIKAL on April 5, 2011 at 12:58pm

I dont see how the big 4 will have any more advantage then some of the other teams. Only for the fact that many other teams get their motors from those big 4 teams. All 10 full time Ford teams get their motors from Roush, Hendrick builds motors for 6 teams including Stewart/Haas, ECR builds engines for 9 full time teams. Gibbs builds (3) for themselves only, and the balance of Toyota teams get engines from TRD, except for Nemacheck and Germain get engines from Triad. Penske builds for (3 teams, themselves and RGM. Also I dont see a company like TRD sitting by and not working their butts off, just like Hendrick, Roush or ECR. A matter of fact a company like TRD, Penske or Roush might have an advantage over ECR or Hendrick as TRD, Penske and Roush have been working with fuel injection for years in other forms of motorsports. Hendrick and ECR only builds NASCAR motors.

But the fact is NASCAR is mandating what components can be used and what ECU can be used. So once NASCAR, McLaren and Freescale Semiconductor finish and approve the ECU mapping it will be very plug and play. The biggest part of Fuel Injection will be understanding how it works with these motors. I'm sure NASCAR will allow some adjustment in tuning, but it will be minimal compared to what they do with the current carb. Also the days of drivers trying to conserve fuel the way they do with a carb will be over, fuel injection is much more efficient.

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Permalink Reply by Brett Crawford on April 5, 2011 at 1:47pm

Ganassi has lots of experience with FI engines. Hendrick and Roush have been doing a lot of R&D with NASCAR, but testing a moving target isn't always as helpful as people think.

As long as RGM gets their engines from Penske, they'll be fine in that area. I'd look more towards teams that are hiring in F1 engineers as THAT''S where the advantage is going to come from initially. Those guys developed the FI systems and are more than capable of tuning it (or at least understanding it) to their advantage. MWR is pretty smart in this sense as I think they have a couple McLaren F1 guys on staff.

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Permalink Reply by NIKAL on April 5, 2011 at 2:12pm

Your right about Ganassi having lots of experience, but I dont know how much input Ganassi has with ECR. I'm sure if he had info to help them they would listen though.

MWR is smart because they have Cal Wells! It's Cal Wells that has been bring these guys over. Last year Cal bought Steve Hallam who was a McLaren F1 Engineer over to work for MWR. He is the Director of Competition for MWR now. Most recently Cal hired Mike Coughlan, the former McLaren Formula 1 Design Director. He is MWR's Director of Vehicle Design. Mike was part of the scandal with McLaren and Ferrari back in 2007. One of the Ferrari engineers past secret info to Mike when he was designing McLarens new F1 car.

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Permalink Reply by Brett Crawford on April 5, 2011 at 2:22pm

I think having those two guys is really going to give them an advantage, at least initially. Maybe other teams have similar hires, but those are the only two I've heard about. It's no coincidence that McLaren is a partner in creating the NASCAR FI ECU system. Even if the system isn't adjustable, those guys understand how it works better than anyone.

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Permalink Reply by GTX - HEMI on April 6, 2011 at 11:39am

Friends.................I have inside info that the FI system has been in the testing since last yrar. Also McLaren will be the ECU of choice. My inside guy that has been invloved with this says that the tamper proof ECU can be tampered with...here is what he said all you have to do is TELL the ECU what it IS SUPOSED TO BE SET FOR AND DO WHAT YOU WANT TO THE ENGINE MAP PROGRAM. I am not a real tech guy but for all of you computer geeks it would make sence. Also here is a bit of dope........all of the major teams have been using traction control for the past year. HMS was the first user, the wireless transponder is so small it could be hidden any where. The system is about 50% efficent.

My source has also built 2.5 rocker ams for the FR9 engine over a year ago. 10 sets $85K

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Permalink Reply by Carl Abrams on April 6, 2011 at 11:58am

Thanks for the scoop.
I am quite happy with the responses that are popping in here.
It is great to have people chatting that actually have knowledge of racing "not that I do" but it is great to read.
As I said before I see this as another learning curve period where the big 4 will be dominant for extended time.

As for trac control "they would not do that because" it is not allowed.

Want to buy a bridge.

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Permalink Reply by Bigzoom on April 5, 2011 at 2:36pm

With motors supplied by Penske...I doubt RGM will see any problems.

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Permalink Reply by WJM on April 5, 2011 at 3:10pm

Here's the ASA TS Late Model engine. It uses a 90mm throttle body and 36-pound injectors with PCM/ECU. I think it's the electronics piece that scares NASCAR because, well, it's electronic - although the brains of it is really to more powerful than a good digital watch.

Of course the ECU is would be sealed and if NASCAR were to randomly issue and/or swap ECUs between cars, no amount of internal tweaking of the motor would add power because the ECU can be programmed to recognize whether or not anybody messed the mapping or ignition timing, fuel flow, etc.

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Permalink Reply by NIKAL on April 5, 2011 at 5:32pm

My understanding with NASCAR's version of Fuel Injection is it will be a very primitive type. Does anyone remember the GM Throttle Body Injection (TBI)? This is where you still utilize an intake manifold similar to what NASCAR is using now. The throttle body would sit where the carburetor currently sits with a single injector at the bottom of the throttle body. From what I have gathered this is the type of fuel injection NASCAR is working on.

The type in the picture above has a throttle body controlling the air flow through the upper intake and a single injector at each cylinder. This is a modern style fuel injection system.

As far as the ECU it was said most likely the teams would have to purchase them directly from Mclaren. Part of McClaren's deal with NASCAR it they supply NASCAR with the tools, personal and parts to be able to download data from each ECU to see if it had been tampered with and or if one ECU is different from another. John Darby was on Sirius a few weeks back discussing the future of Fuel Injection and he said one option McLaren was looking at was if a team attempted to tamper with the ECU it would blank out and fail. At this point it would be no good. Also each ECU is serial numbered and ID to a specific team so McLaren would know who it was sold to and would be able to go back at any time and get it back from a team for testing.

Later it was asked if the ECU's could be handed out at the track like restrictor plates? Darby said it was a possibility as everything is still open for in discussion, and nothing has been officially determined yet.