The REAL Fuel Injection Question.....

Should be why NASCAR went to manifold injection vs. direct injection.....and further why the manufacturers didn't say "um...no thanks, we'll insist on direct".

Considerinig the Manufacturers could actually benefit a bit from a direct injection program. Not sure what they have to gain by switching to a tech that is dying a quick death.

Rant over.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Kenyon on February 18, 2012 at 10:56am

Most manufactures don't use direct injection.Mandating the use of direct injection would have KILLED stockcar racing.It would have obsoleted 100's of millions worth of engine inventories.
Where's the money coming from to pay that? Changing rules only costs the car owners.
http://www.mikemulhern.net/BreakingNow/rocky-redeux-whats-robby-gor...
Still, Gordon is blunt about the NASCAR part of his business these day – he says he doesn't make any money doing this: "We haven't made any money in NASCAR in a long time."

Permalink Reply by ShaneH on February 18, 2012 at 11:27am

Just how many Ford, Dodge, Chevy, or Toyota models actually come with Direct Injection? Your answer is there. You don't just slap direct injection on top of any given engine you want. There would be many thousands of hours and millions upon millions of dollars spent to build direct injection engine packages for nascar. You'd essentially be starting over on engine packages.

Permalink Reply by Christopher Lutz on February 18, 2012 at 3:19pm

well:

Every Mopar with the 3.6 pentastar - which is just about all of them

GM: Corvette, Camero, new Impala and everything else that has their 3.6l engine - so most Buicks

Ford: All Ecoboost engines - 3.5 and 2.0 inclusive

Toyota: All Lexus models have DI

Short Answer - there are a BUNCH of them. And, in 2 years - there will be many, many more.

I'm not sure about starting completely over - new head? yeah. short block? probably could stay exactly the same.

My point is this - If I were a manufacturer....I wouldn't want to do this switch. Mike K - to your point - as an owner - also wouldn't want to do it.

Where is the gain for anyone here?

Permalink Reply by Mike Kenyon on February 18, 2012 at 5:37pm

Na$crap, it's a marketing/PR thing just like the E-85 stupidity.

Christopher, I missed in your reply where all the money is coming from to pay for direct injection development?
If taking all new car and truck sales in just the US,direct injection whould equal some not a bunch.

Permalink Reply by Christopher Lutz on February 18, 2012 at 8:25pm

I'm ignorant as to whether the NASCAR engine programs are revenue generators for the manufacturers. I certainly understand RG's situation is not typical.

I suspect they are not - rather - they are marketing and R&D tools.

If my suspicion is correct - it would be better to do the R&D in DI, where the the market is heading. I understand it's expensive...but, I'd rather spend a lot for some return than spend a lot for no return. I'd bet you a steak dinner that 80% of the cars sold by 2015 will be DI. They need it to achieve the CAFE regs.

My original post was really about why NASCAR even bothered with this change. They know their team's are hurting. They have so many "official x of NASCAR" items the teams are severely limited on sponsorship. NASCAR used to be about developing products that eventually made it to the production vehicles....I wonder if ANY of the developments of the last 20 years have made it into production cars.

(NOTE: the close correlation with production vehicles is what makes some of the euro racing so popular)

RE: marketing and NASCAR - that's a valid point. I'd be interested in their sampling though. I REALLY doubt there are environmentally conscious NASCAR fans. (in meaningful numbers) So - what's the point of marketing "green" to a bunch of people that don't care anyway? It's not like pushing E85 is going to pull in more fans from the wind farm.

I'm not being intentionally argumentative. I understand the DI would cost teams. I just think it would be a smarter move for the Manu's to invest more in the teams and that tech so they could transfer some of the learning to their core business.

Right now - virtually nothing transfers to their core business.

RE: RG's quote "I don't make money in NASCAR" - this doesn't surprise me even a little bit. I need to do some research but, on the surface - it seems to me that most owners have vast business empires (outside racing) and are into racing as a hobby.

Again, I could be wrong. Chip Ganassi comes to mind...but, even he had to do the Felix Sabates thing. I just don't think it's about making money for the owners. RG is absolutely going the right way. The money will come from the sale of Speed (not racing per se)

I worry the market for energy drinks is too saturated to make an impact - but, RG certainly has a platform and audience.

As for cars with direct injection - I'll list them below, you can decide what constitues "a bunch". After doing the list...it's clear it would have been much easier to list the cars that DON'T have it.

**The List**

Every BMW engine
Every Audi engine
Every Lexus Engine
Every Buick Engine

2 Hyundai engines (two best selling models, elantra and Sonata)
Kia (Rio, Sorrento, Optima, Sportage)
Ford (Focus, Fiesta, Ecoboost F150, Fusion, Taurus)
Chevy (Impala, Corvette, Camero, Malibu)
Volkswagaon (Toureg, Golf, Passat, GTI, Golf, Jetta) - do they sell anything else?
Dodge (Charger V6, Challenger V6, Dart)
Chrysler (300, 200)
Jeep (Grand Cherokee, Wrangler)

As for Honda and Toyota - the are conspicuously absent from the list above....however, here are two links / sources that confirm they are less than a year away.

Toyota: Toyota plans to add DI and Turbo to MOST of their line-up

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/22/report-toyota-plans-to-add-turbo...

Honda: a quote from below:

Engines destined for North America include a new 1.5-liter, 1.8-liter and 2.4-liter 4-cylinder, as well as a 3.5-liter V6. Across the board, all will receive direct-injection technology

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/11/honda-previews-new-engin...

Permalink Reply by Mike Kenyon on February 18, 2012 at 11:31pm

"I'm ignorant as to whether the NASCAR engine programs are revenue generators for the manufacturers" the manufactures sale(give to some) parts to the teams, so there's that.
"DI, where the the market is heading". That is correct.
"I'd bet you a steak dinner that 80% of the cars sold by 2015 will be DI. They need it to achieve the CAFE regs. Yep if Obama gets his way-no bet,sorry.
"(NOTE: the close correlation with production vehicles is what makes some of the euro racing so popular)" Really, aren't they going broke faster than us?
'As for cars with direct injection - I'll list them below, you can decide what constitues "a bunch". After doing the list...it's clear it would have been much easier to list the cars that DON'T have it."
As memeory serves,last year between Totoya and Honda (without DI) thats about 3.2 million units vs all on your list that doesn't equal Honda's non DI. And yes Honda's will have DI in the near future.Will it make rats ass? Not really, the more Alcohol they put in the fuel it worse the gas milage.

Permalink Reply by Mike Kenyon on February 20, 2012 at 8:46pm

@Christoper,My bad.Toyota and Honda's 2011 number was 2,470,095 (per NADA)
Since you like Buick's,they sold 177,633
Audi,117,561 including Diesel's
Lexus,198,552
BMW,249,907 including Diesel's
I'll stand on 'some' . the four makes above equal appr. 1/2 on Toyota's sales
You didn't say who should pay for this technology in 'CUP'? is this a Solyndra deal?

Permalink Reply by Wheaton56 on February 18, 2012 at 9:17pm
The general public doesnt know or care what type of fuel injection.

For the most part "does it make power and do I get a gazillion MPG" is all they care about.

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